EP32: A Dose of Price Transparency and the Role of Pharmacists at the Point of Care
The cost of medications have skyrocketed and pharmacists are still filling prescriptions behind the counter instead of being used for their expertise to help patient at the point of care. In this episode, Dr. Edward Fotsch, CEO and founder of Gemini Health share his perspectives with Salina Wong, Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacy Programs at Blue Shield of California, on how the industry can crack the code on drug cost savings through price transparency with lower cost alternatives, the critical role pharmacists can play as part of the overall care team, and the need for more competition to help reduce healthcare costs.
Host: Salina Wong
Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Healthy Dose of Dialogue podcast. I'm your host Salina Wong, Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacy Programs at Blue Shield of California. And today, joining me is Dr. Edward Fotsch. Dr. Fotsch is the CEO and founder of Gemini Health, a California based health IT company that was formed to reduce healthcare costs through price transparency at the point of care. Dr. Fotsch is a nationally recognized expert in healthcare and the application of information technology to the healthcare industry. And in this episode, we'll hear Dr. Fotsch about how he is working with the industry to crack the code on drug cost savings through transparency, the evolving role of pharmacists, and how we can reimagine the pharmacy landscape. And I'm excited to be speaking with an industry leader who is helping to drive change in an industry that's largely been held hostage by pharmaceutical manufacturers and others who take advantage of the lack of pricing transparency. So thank you for joining me, Ed.
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Pleasure to be with you. Thank you so much.
Host: Salina Wong
Great. As a pharmacist, I see an urgent need to increase the pace of change. In less than 20 years medications have become far more complex, some of them are being produced by DNA technology. The cost of medications have skyrocketed and the pharmacists are still filling prescriptions behind the counter instead of used for their expertise to help patients up front. As a seasoned physician and an entrepreneur, you've watched and driven healthcare innovation for many years. So how did this journey lead you to Gemini Health in 2014? And how has Gemini’s work evolved since that time?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Both my journey and Gemini Health have been a bit of an evolution. So my personal story is that I practiced medicine for a decade, ran a medical group and ran an IPA and negotiated managed care contracts. But I got interested in data and technology just as the internet took off. I founded a tech company and actually a couple of tech companies.
But the launch of Gemini actually happened when I was working for a company that all of us old timers know called Physicians Desk Reference or PDR it used to be the big blue or red book you saw in every doc and clinic. We were providing drug information to physicians and pharmacists. And so we're constantly looking for how can we evolve? And how can we expand the information that we provide, including we created a data feed for electronic health records. So we were doing market research asking providers, you know, what else could we tell you? Is it dose calculators? Is it you know, use in pregnancy? What is it?
I was surprised to hear that what they're asking for was ‘tell me the cost of the drug and lower cost alternatives.’ I was surprised because when I went to medical school, of course, as you know, Salina, there's not actually a course in pharmaceuticals in medical school, you sort of pick up pharmaceuticals along the way, which is, of course part of the challenge that we have. But I never really thought nor was I taught that the cost of the drug was my issue. I always thought it was the patient's issue, the employers’ issue, health plans’ issue, pharma’s issue. I didn't know what a PBM was at the time. And so as I leaned further into that, I found that it was pharmacy callbacks, was concerned about rising drug costs. And so I got the inspiration or the idea for Gemini at PDR. We tried to start it actually as a project inside of PDR and for various reasons it didn't belong there. And that was the foundation of Gemini in 2014.
As you all know because of our partnership with Blue Shield that Gemini has evolved. The biggest learning is there's no silver bullet. And that has been the evolution as we thought, ‘Well, gee, if we gave cost at prescribing that would be enough and then no. And then at any rate, we've learned a lot and so our services working with your team and others has evolved to a series of complex – well complex to us because we have to build and maintain them – simple to the end user services all targeted with the same thing which is create a competitive landscape in pharmacy where there has not been one in the past.
Host: Salina Wong
Wow. You know, I have a personal perspective on price transparency. I wonder if you would share how you think price transparency impacts providers, and payers and patients?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
The corollary to transparency is competition. If you don't have transparency, you cannot have competition. But you need another thing, you need transparency, you need alternatives. If you go to Safeway, or whatever store you go to, and you are, you know, or like, is it Coke or Pepsi? The price of Coke is irrelevant largely due to the price of Pepsi, or Safeway Cola or whatever. So, transparency is not sufficient – it’s transparency, plus alternatives – both of those are missing. But if you provide one without the other, and as you know, some of the federal mandates has have required cost delivery to the prescriber, but not alternative cost delivery to the prescriber. And without the ladder, it's just sort of interesting, you know, sort of curious minds want to know.
The second thing of which you and your team are very aware of is there's two costs every drug: there's what the patient pays and then there's what the total cost for the drug is. And there are those in industry who would say with the latter is not important, because it's not what the patient pays, it’s not what the doc cares about. But of course, as you also know, that's just simply not true for a bunch of reasons. Total cost contributes to the cost of care which now drugs are well over 20% of every health care dollar, but also, most members of most plans have a deductible. And when a deductible resets, it's the total cost of the drug that's relevant. So you really have to say, not only what's the cost to the patient but what's the total cost of the drug? And very importantly, what are the alternatives?
And then as we found, you have to find various ways to get that into workflow. So transparency leads to competition, competition leads to lower cost, and every industry except, unfortunately, the pharmaceutical industry, but hopefully, we're well on the way to change that.
Host: Salina Wong
I have a difficult time imagining any other industry where you don't know the price of two things to compare it to each other. And especially in something so important as your own healthcare and the medications that you're gonna take. So when you think about the high costs for prescription medications in the US, what would you say are the biggest barriers to keeping prescription medications affordable?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Yeah, well, I mean, the starting point, as I said, is, is transparency alternatives leading to competition. There are other challenges. One of the biggest ones that we deal with every day is: so there's a drug that a patient is taking, there is a lower cost alternative, there’s savings to the member, there's total savings. Unless that is delivered in workflow to someone who can do something about it. It's a light under a bushel basket. It's, it's fascinating, but nothing happens. And traditionally, that's sort of been where, where healthcare is. You as a payer or an employer, you see everything after the fact in the claims file. Well, by then it's a little bit late. So intersecting the pharmacist who, as we'll discuss, as you know, hopefully, a growing role in the care team, the prescriber, and importantly, the patient or the member with that information in an actionable time.
And each one of those has their own workflow and their own thoughts. And if you deliver at the wrong time, and I can tell you this, for a fact, I used to get faxes or thick manila envelopes from health plans with all of the lower cost alternatives and gaps in care. But the problem was, the patient was nowhere to be found. And there was no good way to connect the information to the action even if I wanted to. And so intersecting workflows and being there right place, right time, is just as important as transparency alternatives leading to competition.
Host: Salina Wong
Yeah, I used to be one of those pharmacists that mailed you that thick packet - well, thank you so much. And, you know, we already knew at the time that you know, half the time it's going to sit on your desk because it's just, it's just a static document. So yes, being in workflow, having the patient in front of you is so critical and important to having that very crucial conversation. Inside and outside of healthcare in the industry, what partnerships do you think are really essential to realizing these, you know, major milestones and progress in what we've got to do?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Well, the big one obviously, is the payer provider partnership which is multifaceted in terms of getting drug costs down. As we've discussed, it's, it's, you know, is there a cost transparency, you're showing the total cost, the drug is showing alternative you're getting into workflow. But then you also have to get into, you know, motivations. I mean, it's easy to say, well, the doctor, the pharmacist should, you know, whoa, there's this information, I've got to take action on it. But if you're in the trenches, seeing patients in either role, or many of the roles, there's, there's a lot of chirping birds in the nest. Yeah, you should do get the drug costs down, but you should do diabetic foot exams, and you should do you know, total body index, and you should do assessments of this and that, and this and that. So, you know, how do you make sure that the incentives of the patient and the payer or the employer are aligned with that of the provider, so it fits in to the you know, I'm having if I'm practicing medicine, I'm seeing 30-35 patients a day, if I don't do that, nothing else really matters, sadly. And we can discuss whether that's the right model or not and value-based care. But as it stands right now, that is really it.
And so you know, how do you get the incentives right? Then the other piece of it, frankly, is that it's easy to say that the payers writ large, but let's talk about health plans and employers, should be focused on drug cost and should be, you know, aligning with providers, and so on and so forth.
For health plans, especially health plans, like Blue Shield that have very sophisticated pharmacy team and high market share. That's much more doable and of course that's why we're executing on that. If you're a self-insured employer, though, it's a whole another ballgame. And I don't mean, this is not, you know, I'm not PBM bashing guy, but essentially, what you're doing is relying on your PBM to provide services for you. And their financial incentives may not be aligned with lowering your costs, no matter what you hope, or think. So, and you don't as an employer, you don't have a pharmacy team. So the so the employers have to find someone who is a bird of a feather, in my opinion. And in California, I, you know, obviously, I would think that would be Blue Shield given the success that the team has had. But you really have to rely on someone other in my opinion, other than the PBM. And I'm hoping that the consultants and the brokers catch up. Because as it is right now, once that PBM contract is signed, most employers are at the mercy of the PBM. And they need to either insist their PBM provide a series of services, educate themselves and say, ‘these are the services that work’ or they need to find a partner, like Shield, or someone whose goals are aligned to get the cost down so that they can benefit from what the health plans are learning and delivering.
Host: Salina Wong
Yeah, totally agree with you. And just a little bit of a sidebar: From your perspective, what do you think needs to be done to ensure that people, patients, consumers have equitable access to affordable prescription drugs?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
You could answer that along lines of what we've discussed. Does the doctor know at the time prescribing? Are they getting reports that say these are lower cost alternatives? When the member comes in for an appointment, is the pharmacist and the care team empowered? All of that should be the case. But I would say that that's necessary, but not sufficient. Because as you know, increasingly, the patient, the member, is a key part of the care team. Or, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the patient. It could be the mom, it could be the oldest daughter of the, you know, the senior, whatever. And they have not been empowered. And of course, there's the old school of thought that's, you know, they don't need to know, and they can't understand the drugs and so on and so forth.
And I'm not trying to diminish the role of docs and pharmacists. They are clearly as they say, the learned intermediaries. But the days of the patient as the sort of, you know, coming to the doctor, the we used to go to church and just sort of listen to the sermon, I think are long since passed. How do you get that actionable information, the transparency, the alternatives, and the competition to the member knowing that workflow to them is a completely different? I mean this isn't what they do for a living, they have lives. So how do you make it just in time? How do you make it ‘Oh, I saw that commercial and I wonder what that drug would cost and what the alternatives are for restless leg syndrome’ or whatever and then make sure that it's available on the mobile app and make sure that when they log in, they have a good experience, meaning they're not sitting and typing drugs, but rather, they're getting a report that they say, ‘Oh, I see your, you know, patient XYZ from Blue Shield, we know what drugs you're taking. We've already created a report for you, here's your report, you can have it anytime you want. Would you like printed? Would you like some help contact your doctor to look at these alternatives.’
And because as you know, the federal government has created a rule not only applies to Medicare beneficiaries, that says that kind of thing is going to be required as January 1. And I say that kind of thing because it doesn't, as is typical of the government, they don't kind of get into the weeds of what patients really want. But empowering them with transparency alternatives, leading to competition and making it available at the time they think about it, which of course, could be three in the morning, or on their way to the doctor's office, or sitting in the waiting room, I think is the sort of the third leg to the stool – doc, pharmacist, and patient – is going to be key. But right now, they don't expect it. I mean, I don't think there's anyone who said, ‘Oh, here's my annual drugs and savings report and shows me all my existing drugs, my lower cost medications’.
Part of what we need to flip here is the expectation that my doctor will know the cost alternatives, the expectation that the pharmacist can help me and make the call, and the expectation that I can walk in and hand the list of alternatives to the pharmacy and say ‘are any of these relevant for me? If so why?’ or call the health plan for it. So it's not just delivering the services, it’s really changing the expectation. And I would say given the amount of weight that has been put on patient satisfaction and Medicare Star ratings, and I think many employers want to see, you know, high satisfaction scores, that's at the end of the day what the HR department wants is happy coworkers. Providing that when you know, the cost of drugs is probably the number one issue for most patients who engage the system, having that and setting that new expectation can be a competitive advantage if you're early mover. But what we need to happen is every patient just expects of course, I know what the alternatives are, and I've made a discussion with my doctor and pharmacists, I'm on the right medications.
Host: Sailna Wong
And that leads us into talking about the role of the pharmacist and just a little bit of a touch point to the earlier question. I think that around equity, cultural competency is critical and important. And you have a bunch of pharmacists who work in the neighborhood, who are part of the community. And, you know, if they're helping the patients to navigate in their own language and, you know, understanding their culture, I think that goes a long way to helping the physician in their duties and taking care of that patient. So, you know, that's, you know, my view a part of my view on the role of pharmacists speaking as a pharmacist. In your opinion, how do you see the role of pharmacists evolving? And where do you see the opportunities or the challenges?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
When I was practicing medicine there was a pharmacist in the hospital. I'm not sure I ever met him or her. And then there was a pharmacist at the retail pharmacy. And that was sort of my view of pharmacists. That was a long time ago, as I mentioned, now, you have pharmacy teams that are essentially acting as advocates for members, for example, your team at Blue Shield. But in California, and frankly, in every state – anytime you have more than say 100-200 docs working together, there's a pharmacist on the team. It's a dramatic change from a few decades ago.
And so then the question is, what is that pharmacist doing and why are they doing it? Well, they're participating in the care team and trying to make sure that the drugs are appropriate and affordable. And as you know, with value-based care and ACO contracts, there's financial motivation as there should be for the for the medical group, led by the pharmacist to get the cost down. So the players are in place on the field and what we found is what's missing is the right equipment to empower the players be successful.
Specifically, what do I mean by that? If I was running, if I was an employer and I had, you know, 1,000 employees, I don't have a pharmacist. But if I was, even if I hired a pharmacist, what tools would I have for them to figure out how I'm gonna get my costs down? Well, I'm going to get his claims. You know, it's driving, looking in the rearview mirror. And then if you think into the weeds, which we have worked through over the past few years, let's say, Dr. Salina has a patient, and they're on a drug and there's a lower cost alternative. And I see that in the claims. I see they're not on the most cost-effective medication. So I'll call Dr. Salina and say, ‘Well, how much?’ And I'll say, ‘Well, you should move from drug A to less expensive drug B.’ Well, Dr. Salina is naturally going to say, ‘Oh, okay, good. How much is my patient going to save?’ Well, you can't tell them that, with specificity. It can't be ‘Well, I'm not sure. But it's going to be lower.’ Because what does Dr. Salina say to the member?
So part of the weeds in this that we figured out is the pharmacist needs an interactive tool that says, ‘'I’m going to engage these 100 patients in drug utilization review, or medication therapy management, or any of the things they do to make sure the patient's on the right medication. Or I'm gonna engage these 10 doctors tomorrow. I need a report that's accurate, up-to-date that says, here's all the lower cost drugs and you're specifically what the patient will save so that the doc or the staff is empowered to make those calls.
So I think the incentives are increasing their alignment. Good. Pharmacists are on the team. Good. Now, we have to make sure that they have the tools that empower them to make the call that actually makes a difference. And I would say that gets back to broken record: transparency, alternatives leading to competition.
Host: Salina Wong
I so much agree. I mean, pharmacists get doctorate level academic training around medications, you know, far more than any, any other clinician gets trained around medications. And we have the business acumen around the business of pharmacy. And when you're standing in a pharmacy, you can price check medications all day long. But when you're in the patient care setting, if you don't have the tools, you're just really working, you know, partway through your capability. So having those tools is truly critical.
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Well, unfortunately, as you know, in industry, there's been forces that have been trying to keep pharmacists in their spot. It's known as scope of practice. But there's there was fortunately, I think they're all gone. Now there was a group of people who said, Well, if we let pharmacists do that, and doctors won't be able to do and they'll make less money. I think now, the problems are so severe, and the doctors are so not prepared to consider every therapeutic alternative, that the doors are open now for the pharmacist to come in, at least in California, we don't seem to be fighting that battle so much is really: are they getting the right tools? are on the incentives aligned? Which of course we're working on optimizing that.
Host: Salina Wong
So can you talk a little bit about the drug cost analysis work that you're doing in partnership with health care industry? What trends are you seeing? Anything new, other than what you've already shared?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Well, I mean, the probably the biggest one that that is easier to understand is the consumer empowerment piece, which we discussed, combined with hopefully ubiquitous transparency, right? I mean, at any point in time, everyone should be on the same page, the patient, the pharmacist, and the prescriber, the three P's should be on the same.
But there are some other things that that I think are key and the big one that most people see is you know, specialty care biologics. Because that's migrating quickly, the FDA is approving biosimilars. Some are now either interchangeable, or maybe soon. And for some of the folks who are joining us, they may not know, if I write a prescription as a physician for a branded drug, and there's a and there's a generic, the pharmacist can make that switch at the counter. The specialty drugs are tremendously expensive. It's one thing to have a biosimilar, as they call them, essentially an attempt at a generic thing to have that be exchangeable, if you will, at the counter. And for the most part, that's not the case, it's moving that direction.
But the bigger point is, if you talk to any employer, they're going to say where's your biggest cost rise? And they're gonna say it's in the specialty drug in the biologics. The complexity of those drugs and biosimilars and potential alternatives really requires much more than the traditional three-tiered copay, we'll look at the claims after the fact. I mean, it's all the complexity requires systems to manage the complexity. And then there's another piece of that which is site of service. It's not just which drug is going to be, for example, infused, is that going to be infused in the doctor's office? In the hospital? This gets into all of the challenges with financial motivation, and all that has to be worked through. And now that we have, if you will, the train tracks to communicate, and systems in the back that are looking at the cost, we can begin or continue to look at specialty cost site of service and say, how do we again, transparency, alternatives, competition, and not just the traditional, you know, sort of, you know, co-pays.
There's one other thing that that we're really excited about. We have the thing we call a Gemini score, which is the likelihood that a medication gets switched. That's relevant because when you’re a pharmacists working with 200 docs, you don't want to talk to every doc, every time, you can every day about every drug, you want something that says this is the low hanging fruit, this is my 80/20 rule. And so that stratification of the drugs, knowing what gets switched, and then if you apply that to specialty, that's going to change dramatically, there may be no alternative and then a biosimilar is approved. And now suddenly, the Gemini score goes up because you have a switchable drug. So you know, consumer empowerment, ubiquitous access to transparency, alternatives, and competition, specialty, and then you know, a little bit in the weeds are things like stratifying, the drugs, as we like to say, a Gemini score.
Host: Salina Wong
You know, back in the day, when medications, you know, barely registered on the cost radar, it was okay to ignore cost as part of treatment, you know, medication treatment, but now you cannot ignore it. And so much so that now people, you know, in the in the seat of getting treatment, having to pay for these medications, they have to make the choice, they have to be involved in that cost, versus, you know, health benefit versus risk discussion. So just very, very critical.
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Well, and it's also just if I could, it's also a big change in the physicians, just briefly, I remember I was on rounds, once, as a resident and one of the medical students made a comment about how expensive there's a patient in the ICU prolonged I made a comment about how much money had been spent and the attendant came, walked over to him and handed him a dime. This tells you how long ago it was - call your mother and tell her you want to be an accountant, not a doctor. The message was not only is that is, you know, is not your job to hear about costs, but you shouldn't even talk about costs, and you just can't practice medicine that way anymore. Even if you if that's your mindset, every patient is going to be coming in saying, ‘Hey, Doc, I we got to get grandpa's cost down. It's like between heat, food, and medication. So we just assumed have all three, how can you help us?’ And of course we need to, we need to solve for that.
Host: Salina Wong
And didn't we just really experience that through the pandemic, right?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, of course, with the cost of drugs, and now with inflation, that problem is getting bigger, not smaller. So, you know, these were these were really important pre-COVID. And now they're, you know, all the more so.
Host: Salina Wong
So looking at the future, if we had a crystal ball. What gives you the most hope for change and reform in the prescription drug market to make sure that every person has safe and equitable access to affordable prescription drugs?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Yeah, I wish there was a simple answer to that. We have historical trends in healthcare that are either ambivalent to the cost of drugs, or patently behind higher cost drugs. This is you know, everyone's who works at a company, their job is to make the company successful. So there's not a shot at Big Pharma or PBMs, or pharmacies or anyone else. But if you traditionally think of who knew the cost of drugs, it was pharma, PBMs, and pharmacies. Each one of those you'd have to argue, is, does better when drug costs go up. And who didn't know the cost of drugs and the alternatives? It was the patients, the pharmacist, well they knew to some extent, but if they weren't empowered to do it, the patient, pharmacist, and the prescriber. So the thing that gives me the most hope is that that's changing.
And unfortunately, the bad news turns into the good news. Because yeah, when I was first started practicing medicine, the health care dollar, less than it was a single digit portion of the cost, and it may have been as low as 5% when I was in medical school. Now, obviously, it's over 20%. And it's going up. So that's, you could argue that it's bad and good. You know, when I was in medical school, Hodgkin's lymphoma was a fatal disease. Now it's curable. I practice at San Francisco General, when AIDS came up, that was a fatal disease. Now it's a chronic disease. So it's not bad news. But as you get these better drugs, how do you make them affordable?
Well, the number one way you make things affordable, is competition. It's not price controls, it's I mean, I'm not taking a shot. But that's how you make things affordable is you have a competitive landscape, and you make sure that there's lots of alternatives that there's a lot of transparency. So that you know, all the things we talked about today, give me hope that we're heading in the right direction.
And when we have successes, we need to, you know, and high-profile groups like like Blue Shield with charismatic spokespeople like Paul Markovich and Salina Wong, you don't need to get the word out. Right. I mean, it's, it's, and thankfully, because the Blues have a bit of a, you know, I mean, they're more sisters than, than necessarily head-to-head competition, kind of a thing. I realized that maybe evolving, but you know, getting the word out is really key, like, this is what you're doing. But you may need more than that. And so this is what successful and here the results are. And in addition, once you do that, here's where we're going with it. Because this is clearly a journey. The fact that we've had some success along the way is great because it you know, put some pep in your step. But it's we're not there yet by any stretch of the imagination. We still need more copper bullets. And we, we have to fire.
Host: Salina Wong
Yeah, I mean, I've looked back on our partnership, and each year has gotten better. Each year, we've had better adoption amongst providers and pharmacists. And so it gives me hope, too. So now I'm going to end with something a little bit fun, a little bit of rapid-fire question for you and get to know you a little bit better. What's the one thing you do to stay healthy?
Guest: Dr. Ed Fotsch
Oh, you know, this probably sounds strange, but I lift weights now. I mean, obviously, I'm not all bulked up. But I was really surprised. I went from weightlifting one or two days a week to every other day. And it you know, and the older you get, the more you should lift weights. I mean, especially for women, frankly, because their calcium, and so on and so forth. So if I just say what's the one thing that was surprising that I do to stay healthy it would be weightlifting.
Host: Salina Wong
What's your most used app on your phone? This might be a little dangerous, but we'll go ahead and ask it.
Host: Dr. Ed Fotsch
It's not only not dangerous it’s just patently boring. The hard truth is that I most of these apps are email, weather.com, and because I live on the water in Sausalito it’s a tide chart. So if I'm gonna go out kayaking, I need to know if I'm going to end up in Berkeley if I don't paddle hard enough, so those are my those my apps.
Host: Salina Wong
Well, the last question is you led right into it. What's your favorite thing about where you live? And I know where you live. And I think you've everything about where you live it’s a favorite thing.
Host: Dr. Ed Fotsch
So I am very fortunate. I've lived in Sausalito for a few decades, and I actually live on the water in Sausalito. And we have a pier that goes out into the San Francisco Bay. And you know, to some degree, if I get my head straight in the morning, if you know, you sort of feel like you're on vacation every day, and of course, people pay a lot of money to come here. But my favorite thing about where I live is, and this was me an hour ago is I walked to the end of my pier, and I do what I call my fake yoga in the morning, which is basically back stretches and deep knee bends and stuff. That's not really yoga. But it's, it's a privilege to live on the shores of the San Francisco Bay.
Host: Salina Wong
Yes, it's beautiful. All right. Well, thank you Ed, for your time. And thank you all for taking the time to listen. I hope you walked away with some really important understanding about the role of price transparency, and how it will help reduce healthcare costs, especially around prescription drugs, and then the critical role of pharmacists and how they participate in the overall care team, and how the industry can work together and do better things, be more competitive to help us drive down the cost of drugs.
And so for more information about Gemini health, visit their website at Gemini.Health. And join us next time as we continue to bring you a healthy dose of insights and perspectives based on conversations with leaders who are transforming healthcare. We'd love to hear your feedback. Share your comments. Let us know your thoughts by writing a review on Apple podcasts. And you can also join the conversation on LinkedIn or Twitter @doseofdialogue or visit our website at www.doseofdialogue.com Thank you very much.
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